All posts by bfwebster

GC blogging: the Rome (Italy) temple [updated w/location]

OK…I wasn’t expecting that . The only thing that could have surprised me more would have been a Beijing temple.

UPDATED: OK, since I’m getting a lot of web hits, here are some more details from this Deseret News article :

The 12th European temple of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will be built in Rome. . . .

The Rome Italy Temple will be the first to be constructed near the worldwide headquarters for the Roman Catholic Church. It will serve church members from a variety of countries and greatly reduce travel time and expense to the Latter-day Saints living in the area, the release states. . . .

Reaction was emotional. Italy Rome Mission President Jeffrey Acerson, who has been in Rome sine July 2007, was moved by the news.

“The Saints in Italy have waited a long time,” Acerson said, his voice cracking. “We ‘re excited, we’re anxious and we’re very humbled by the decision of a prophet of the Lord to move forward with a temple in Rome.”

When he heard the news, Acerson said at first he wanted to react like Italian soccer fans, who take to the streets when their teams win.

“I felt like all the Saints here in Italy wanted to go into the streets to let everyone know a temple is coming,” he said.

The LDS Church has more than 22,000 members in Italy, where preaching first began in 1850 by then-Elder Lorenzo Snow, who later became president of the church. The first congregation of Latter-day Saints in Italy was organized in Brescia on March 20, 1966. The first Italian mission was opened in August that year, but the church didn’t have formal legal status until 1993.

Though a temple site hasn’t been announced, many Italian church members think a location on church-owned land on the northeastern side of Rome would be a perfect fit, Acerson said.

Tullio Deruvo, church spokesman in Italy, said the site many members speculate about is typical Roman countryside adorned with Mediterranean pine trees. The land is located with easy access to a freeway on the outskirts of Rome, Delruvo said.

And Rome is likely to be closer for Saints in Greece, Cyprus, Albania, Croatia, Bosnia-Herzegovina and Macedonia, members who currently travel to Bern, Switzerland, for temple work. Though the Rome temple is likely to draw Church members, who coordinate temple service with vacation time, from all over Europe.

Go read the whole article.

The LDS Church newsroom has given information on the history of the LDS Church in Italy , but no real details on the temple itself.

[UPDATE] And here are some interesting thoughts on Temple Square vs. the Vatican, as well as some suggestions for the architecture and interior artwork for the Rome temple.

[UPDATE]: Here’s a Google Maps link showing the location of the temple in Rome (hat tip to Temple Study). ..bruce..

“An American Carol”: my review

I have posted my review of David Zucker’s new film, “An American Carol” over at one of my other blogs. Here’s a brief excerpt:

David Zucker is brave. Not just because he gleefully mocks the Left (including Hollywood), but because he gleefully mocks radical Islamic terrorists as well. And he is very politically incorrect in how both the Left and radical Islamists are portrayed. When in the first few minutes of the movie you have suicide bomber jokes — not wry or ironic asides, but Airplane!-style, pushing-the-boundaries-of-taste jokes and pratfalls — you know you’re not in West LA anymore.

YMMV.  ..bruce..

Another perspective on the continuing crisis

There will come soft rains and the smell of the ground,
And swallows circling with their shimmering sound;

And frogs in the pools singing at night,
And wild plum trees in tremulous white;

Robins will wear their feathery fire,
Whistling their whims on a low fence-wire;

And not one will know of the war, not one
Will care at last when it is done.

Not one would mind, neither bird nor tree,
If mankind perished utterly;

And Spring herself, when she woke at dawn
Would scarcely know that we were gone.

— Sara Teasdale

[cross posted from And Still I Persist]

[full size (3008×2000) original photograph]

Some words of wisdom for Sarah Palin

Plus ça change, plus c’est la meme chose:

“I am often made aware of the utter uselessness and folly of seeking to vindicate my character…from the simple fact that although foul aspersions can be bruited far and wide, held to the fluttering breeze by every press and rolled as sweet under every tongue, yet while the vile slander is fairly refuted and truth appears in the most incontestable manner it is permitted to lie quietly upon the shelf in slumber the sleep of death or if by chance it should get published in some obscure nook or corner of this great republic be most religiously suppressed as tho in fear that the truth should be known and believed.”

— Brigham Young writing to (then) U.S. Secretary of War Jefferson Davis, 1855 (quoted in 40 Ways to Look at Brigham Young, Orton & Slaughter, Deseret Book, 2008, pp. xiv-xv)

Doesn’t look as though the interwebs have changed things all that much.  ..bruce w..

[cross posted from And Still I Persist]

BYU Honors Program reading list (mid-1970s)

It is, of course, fashionable to mock BYU as somehow being parochial or backwards, even (especially!) among the Bloggernacle. Having attended BYU in the 1970s and taught there in the 1980s, I don’t really buy that. BYU students as a body have more real-world exposure to international culture, language and politics — not to mention genuine third-world poverty — than any other major US university. Also, as I have written here before, my freshman Honors English class was actually “composition and reasoning”, and we had to learn to construct and defend a logical argument, a skill sadly lacking in current public discourse, especially in academia and politics (and, frankly, religion).

Scrounging through my files after an e-mail exchange on reading lists with a good friend (hi, Linsey!), I ran across an “HONORS PROGRAM RECOMMENDED READING LIST” from my undergraduate years (1971-72, 74-78). I don’t know exactly when this was compiled; some analysis of the articles cited might establish a “no earlier than” date. But I had this before I graduated in 1978, since I didn’t have a lot of interaction with the Honors Program during my two years of teaching at BYU (1985-87; I was an instructor in the Computer Science department).

So, here’s what the Honors Program recommended back in the 1970s that we as undergraduates read. I’ve reformatted it a bit (and corrected a few typos, though probably introduced a few of my own; this was most likely typed upon on a typewriter on a mimeograph stencil), but the overall structure is still the same. Note that the original takes up seven pages, two columns per page. I’ve put in a few notes in italics and brackets. The list itself contains occasional duplications (e.g., Captial/Das Kapital by Karl Marx shows up in two different places); I’ve left those intact.

Given that this list was complied 30 years ago, what would you add or drop? What entries surprise you the most? [UPDATE: Here is the current BYU Honors “Great Works” list.]

Continue reading BYU Honors Program reading list (mid-1970s)

Child of the Year moments

Heather O. over at Mommy Mormon Wars has a posting about “Another Mother of the Year moment” (which involves her toddler daughter stuffing her mouth with holly berries). The comments (be sure to read them all) have similar “I can’t believe I did that” parental moments.

In fairness to Heather O. and the rest, however, many of these moments are less the parents’ fault than simply the consequences of having children. I think that many of my mom’s gray hairs come from my own actions — and I started young. Here are some examples:

1958 (age 5, living in Imperial Beach, California):

— The street we live on has (as I recall) no sidewalks — just yards that go right up to the street. After a heavy rain, there are wonderful large puddles in the worn depressions along the shoulder of the road. As I go out to play, my mom tells me, “Don’t play in those mud puddles with your clothes on.” A while later, she gets a call from a neighbor who says that I’m playing stark naked in one of the large puddles — with my clothes carefully laid out on the neighbor’s lawn.

— There was an abandoned workshop or garage across the street; I thought of it as a “barn”, but it was far too low for that. I used to climb up to the roof and jump off. In fact, I very much loved jumping off of high places until I was about 9 or 10. Then I suddenly developed a fear of heights. I don’t know if that was just a realization of what I was doing, or the result of an unpleasant jump whose details I’ve blotted out completely.

1958-1960 (ages 5-7, living in Naval housing outside of Subic Bay, Philippine Islands):

— I used to leave the Naval housing area (West Kalayaan) and wander in the surrounding jungle. On at least one occasion, I took the first aid kit from my house, and a friend (same age) and I wandered into the jungle, found a nearby Negrito village, and tried to ask them if they had any cuts that needed band-aids. (They spoke no English.) It’s been nearly 50 years, but I remember the warm (and, in retrospect, probably amused) smile on the face of the native — an older man not dressed in much more than a loincloth — who tried to talk with us and who offered us coffee in a tin cup.

— I was crawling around an abandoned pillbox (probably Japanese) in the jungle and cut myself (on a rusty piece of rebar) on the inside of my thigh. Rather than tell my mom when I got home, I just put a large band-aid on it. Luckily, I was wearing shorts; she spotted the band-aid, asked me about it, took the band-aid off, and then transported me to the Naval hospital, where I got two stitches and a tetanus booster.

— On a regular basis, a truck pulling a trailer would wend its way through the Naval housing area. The trailer had a DDT sprayer that would emit dense clouds of wonderful-smelling DDT fog. We (the neighborhood kids) would play tag in the DDT fog.

— My older brother Chip and I would go down to a construction area on the outskirts of the housing area near sundown to throw dirt clods at the fruit bats.  Chip and I also used to capture large beetles and make them fight each other.

— I remember on a few occasions walking from the Subic Bay base itself to the naval housing area and noting with keen interest the signs along the side of the road saying, “Danger! Quicksand!”

1960-61 (ages 7-8, Astoria, OR):

— We lived in Naval housing again, with the (moderate) rain forests starting at our back yard. I used to wander through these woods at will — alone or with a friend — and capture snakes. My friend Paul and I once captured 26 snakes in one day. I kept large numbers of snakes in two unused trash cans behind our duplex. Somehow, in all this, I never once caught or encountered a poisonous snake.

And so on.  Your own stories?  If you need some different inspiration, here’s a post over at thisisby.us made two years ago in response to some school banning tag; the comment thread is still going.  ..bruce..

The Gods of the Copybook Headings

[crossposted from And Still I Persist]

Jerry Pournelle over at his blog has linked to the Rudyard Kipling classic. Written nearly 90 years ago, it is remarkably apt right now, as our financial system threatens to melt down over human greed and stupidity:

As I pass through my incarnations in every age and race,
I make my proper prostrations to the Gods of the Market Place.
Peering through reverent fingers I watch them flourish and fall,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings, I notice, outlast them all.

We were living in trees when they met us. They showed us each in turn
That Water would certainly wet us, as Fire would certainly burn:
But we found them lacking in Uplift, Vision and Breadth of Mind,
So we left them to teach the Gorillas while we followed the March of Mankind.

We moved as the Spirit listed. They never altered their pace,
Being neither cloud nor wind-borne like the Gods of the Market Place;
But they always caught up with our progress, and presently word would come
That a tribe had been wiped off its icefield, or the lights had gone out in Rome.

With the Hopes that our World is built on they were utterly out of touch,
They denied that the Moon was Stilton; they denied she was even Dutch;
They denied that Wishes were Horses; they denied that a Pig had Wings;
So we worshipped the Gods of the Market Who promised these beautiful things.

When the Cambrian measures were forming, They promised perpetual peace.
They swore, if we gave them our weapons, that the wars of the tribes would cease.
But when we disarmed They sold us and delivered us bound to our foe,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “Stick to the Devil you know.

On the first Feminian Sandstones we were promised the Fuller Life
(Which started by loving our neighbour and ended by loving his wife)
Till our women had no more children and the men lost reason and faith,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “The Wages of Sin is Death.”

In the Carboniferous Epoch we were promised abundance for all,
By robbing selected Peter to pay for collective Paul;
But, though we had plenty of money, there was nothing our money could buy,
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings said: “If you don’t work you die.”

Then the Gods of the Market tumbled, and their smooth-tongued wizards withdrew
And the hearts of the meanest were humbled and began to believe it was true
That All is not Gold that Glitters, and Two and Two make Four—
And the Gods of the Copybook Headings limped up to explain it once more.

As it will be in the future, it was at the birth of Man—
There are only four things certain since Social Progress began:—
That the Dog returns to his Vomit and the Sow returns to her Mire,
And the burnt Fool’s bandaged finger goes wabbling back to the Fire;

And that after this is accomplished, and the brave new world begins
When all men are paid for existing and no man must pay for his sins,
As surely as Water will wet us, as surely as Fire will bum,
The Gods of the Copybook Headings with terror and slaughter return!

Amen and amen. (Here’s a though: correlate this poem with the Book of Mormon.)  ..bruce w..

P.S. “Copybook headings”: classic proverbs and wise quotes printed at the top of each page of blank school booklets (copybooks) used for essays and handwriting practice.

Baptism and restoration in the Book of Mormon (part 3)

I have written previously here about the practice of baptism among the Lehites (see here and here). To briefly summarize:

— About 50 years after leaving Jerusalem, both Jacob and Nephi1 teach about the universal need for baptism, though the record doesn’t talk about them actually baptizing anyone.

— For the next 400 years, there is no further mention of baptism at all in the Book of Mormon record as we have it (recognizing that we’re missing the Book of Lehi) — either as a doctrinal subject or as actually being practiced.

— After that 400 years, Alma1 reintroduces baptism among the Nephites, at the same time establishing a “church of anticipation” (called by the Lehites “the church of God”) that appears to be quite distinct from the kingly reign implementing the law of Moses that appears to have dominated among the Nephites during those 400 years. Note that it is never clear where Alma gets his authority to baptize; he is one of the unrighteous priests appointed to their positions by King Noah, so it’s unclear where his priesthood authority to administer baptism comes from[1].

— Baptism is then actively practiced among both Nephites and Lamanites for over 180 years right up until the destruction that occurs at the time of the Savior’s crucifixion, with Nephi3 leading the way up to the end and ordaining others to baptize as well.

Now comes the curious part. The great destruction occurs, the survivors gather at the temple at Bountiful (including Nephi3 and other disciples), the Savior appears — and He reintroduces baptism. The Savior explicitly states that he is giving Nephi3 and others “power that ye shall baptized this people when I am again ascended into heaven” (3 Nephi 11:18-22). The Savior goes on to explain the exact procedure by which baptism should occur and even gives the words of the baptismal prayer (3 Nephi 11:23-28), twice stating that “there shall be no disputations among you” regarding baptism (see verses 22, 28).

This immediately raises a few questions:

Continue reading Baptism and restoration in the Book of Mormon (part 3)

An discomforting coincidence (if it is one) [corrected]

[UPDATE AND CORRECTION] djared1 (see comments) points out that Pres. Hinckley’s first references to Pharoah’s dream in General Conference occurred all the way back in 1998; what I’m trying to figure out is how I missed this talk when doing my searches through the Ensign at lds.org.  He also points out that the housing bubble began to burst about 7 years after this original talk.

Here’s the relevant passage (after Pres. Hinckley quotes most of the dream itself from Genesis):

Now, brethren, I want to make it very clear that I am not prophesying, that I am not predicting years of famine in the future. But I am suggesting that the time has come to get our houses in order.

So many of our people are living on the very edge of their incomes. In fact, some are living on borrowings.

We have witnessed in recent weeks wide and fearsome swings in the markets of the world. The economy is a fragile thing. A stumble in the economy in Jakarta or Moscow can immediately affect the entire world. It can eventually reach down to each of us as individuals. There is a portent of stormy weather ahead to which we had better give heed.

I hope with all my heart that we shall never slip into a depression. I am a child of the Great Depression of the thirties. I finished the university in 1932, when unemployment in this area exceeded 33 percent.

My father was then president of the largest stake in the Church in this valley. It was before our present welfare program was established. He walked the floor worrying about his people. He and his associates established a great wood-chopping project designed to keep the home furnaces and stoves going and the people warm in the winter. They had no money with which to buy coal. Men who had been affluent were among those who chopped wood.

I repeat, I hope we will never again see such a depression. But I am troubled by the huge consumer installment debt which hangs over the people of the nation, including our own people. In March 1997 that debt totaled $1.2 trillion, which represented a 7 percent increase over the previous year.

In December of 1997, 55 to 60 million households in the United States carried credit card balances. These balances averaged more than $7,000 and cost $1,000 per year in interest and fees. Consumer debt as a percentage of disposable income rose from 16.3 percent in 1993 to 19.3 percent in 1996.

Everyone knows that every dollar borrowed carries with it the penalty of paying interest. When money cannot be repaid, then bankruptcy follows. There were 1,350,118 bankruptcies in the United States last year. This represented a 50 percent increase from 1992. In the second quarter of this year, nearly 362,000 persons filed for bankruptcy, a record number for a three-month period.

We are beguiled by seductive advertising. Television carries the enticing invitation to borrow up to 125 percent of the value of one’s home. But no mention is made of interest.

President J. Reuben Clark Jr., in the priesthood meeting of the conference in 1938, said from this pulpit: “Once in debt, interest is your companion every minute of the day and night; you cannot shun it or slip away from it; you cannot dismiss it; it yields neither to entreaties, demands, or orders; and whenever you get in its way or cross its course or fail to meet its demands, it crushes you” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1938, 103).

I recognize that it may be necessary to borrow to get a home, of course. But let us buy a home that we can afford and thus ease the payments which will constantly hang over our heads without mercy or respite for as long as 30 years.

No one knows when emergencies will strike. I am somewhat familiar with the case of a man who was highly successful in his profession. He lived in comfort. He built a large home. Then one day he was suddenly involved in a serious accident. Instantly, without warning, he almost lost his life. He was left a cripple. Destroyed was his earning power. He faced huge medical bills. He had other payments to make. He was helpless before his creditors. One moment he was rich, the next he was broke.

Since the beginnings of the Church, the Lord has spoken on this matter of debt. To Martin Harris through revelation, He said: “Pay the debt thou hast contracted with the printer. Release thyself from bondage” (D&C 19:35).

President Heber J. Grant spoke repeatedly on this matter from this pulpit. He said: “If there is any one thing that will bring peace and contentment into the human heart, and into the family, it is to live within our means. And if there is any one thing that is grinding and discouraging and disheartening, it is to have debts and obligations that one cannot meet” (Gospel Standards, comp. G. Homer Durham [1941], 111).

We are carrying a message of self-reliance throughout the Church. Self-reliance cannot obtain when there is serious debt hanging over a household. One has neither independence nor freedom from bondage when he is obligated to others.

In managing the affairs of the Church, we have tried to set an example. We have, as a matter of policy, stringently followed the practice of setting aside each year a percentage of the income of the Church against a possible day of need.

I am grateful to be able to say that the Church in all its operations, in all its undertakings, in all of its departments, is able to function without borrowed money. If we cannot get along, we will curtail our programs. We will shrink expenditures to fit the income. We will not borrow.

One of the happiest days in the life of President Joseph F. Smith was the day the Church paid off its long-standing indebtedness.

What a wonderful feeling it is to be free of debt, to have a little money against a day of emergency put away where it can be retrieved when necessary.

President Faust would not tell you this himself. Perhaps I can tell it, and he can take it out on me afterward. He had a mortgage on his home drawing 4 percent interest. Many people would have told him he was foolish to pay off that mortgage when it carried so low a rate of interest. But the first opportunity he had to acquire some means, he and his wife determined they would pay off their mortgage. He has been free of debt since that day. That’s why he wears a smile on his face, and that’s why he whistles while he works.

I urge you, brethren, to look to the condition of your finances. I urge you to be modest in your expenditures; discipline yourselves in your purchases to avoid debt to the extent possible. Pay off debt as quickly as you can, and free yourselves from bondage.

[ORIGINAL POST]

It was almost exactly seven years ago [but see above] — October 2001 — that Pres. Gordon B. Hinckley stood in General Conference and gave the talk, “The Times in Which We Live“. Among other things, he said:

I do not know what the future holds. I do not wish to sound negative, but I wish to remind you of the warnings of scripture and the teachings of the prophets which we have had constantly before us.

I cannot forget the great lesson of Pharaoh’s dream of the fat and lean kine and of the full and withered stalks of corn.

I cannot dismiss from my mind the grim warnings of the Lord as set forth in the 24th chapter of Matthew.

I am familiar, as are you, with the declarations of modern revelation that the time will come when the earth will be cleansed and there will be indescribable distress, with weeping and mourning and lamentation (see D&C 112:24).

Now, I do not wish to be an alarmist. I do not wish to be a prophet of doom. I am optimistic. I do not believe the time is here when an all-consuming calamity will overtake us. I earnestly pray that it may not. There is so much of the Lord’s work yet to be done. We, and our children after us, must do it.

Joseph, of course, interpreted the Pharaoh’s dream as being seven years of plenty, followed by seven years of famine. Pres. Kimball repeated the citation to the Pharaoh’s dream three years ago:

Our people for three-quarters of a century have been counseled and encouraged to make such preparation as will assure survival should a calamity come.

We can set aside some water, basic food, medicine, and clothing to keep us warm. We ought to have a little money laid aside in case of a rainy day.

Now what I have said should not occasion a run on the grocery store or anything of that kind. I am saying nothing that has not been said for a very long time.

Let us never lose sight of the dream of Pharaoh concerning the fat cattle and the lean, the full ears of corn, and the blasted ears; the meaning of which was interpreted by Joseph to indicate years of plenty and years of scarcity (see Genesis 41:1–36).

I’m old enough to have been through some uncomfortable financial times (think of double-digit inflation and double-digit interest rates at the same time), but the current mess has been brewing for about a decade, starting with the dot-com craziness of the late 1990s and followed by the subprime mortgage craziness of the past several years. It’s not going to be solved either quickly or without economic pain.  ..bruce..

An embarrassing personal story involving BYU football

True story. I know. It happened to me.

In the fall of 1974, I had returned to BYU after spending two years in Central America on my mission. I quickly started dating someone whom I had dated in high school and during my freshman year at BYU as well. After several weeks, I proposed to her (which she accepted) — and then after a few weeks decide that I wasn’t ready to be engaged. She and I had been talking about marriage since high school, but I wanted to be sure I was marrying her because I was ready and willing to be married. I wanted to date around to be sure that she was my choice for marriage, not just a habit.  So I ended the engagement, though I was sure we would ended up getting married (which we did, about a year later).

Anyway, this was still in the fall of 1974. A day or two after the breakup, I get a phone call from another girl — Chris — whom I had also dated my freshman year at BYU, and who had written me from time to time when I was on my mission. (I was very careful not to leave a “waiting” girlfriend behind when I left on my mission, which had the unforeseen — but welcome — effect of having about five different girls write me.) Anyway, Chris has two tickets for that Saturday’s game, which I believe was against Arizona State and which was being telecast regionally (including in Provo). I’m not sure Chris knew about my engagement or its abrupt end (though knowing Chris, I wouldn’t be surprised if she did); as far as I knew, she was just asking me out to the game, and since the whole reason I had ended the engagement was to ‘date around’, I accept.

OK, so we get together and head to the stadium. Chris is giving off the “It’s sure great to see you after two years!” vibes, linking her arm through mine. We get to the game, it starts, and the other team (ASU) takes the lead and holds it for some time. Then BYU starts getting some points. Each time BYU scores, we jump up and yell, and Chris turns to me with that “Let’s hug each other!” vibe (ok, boys and girls, you know what I mean). I ignore it after the first BYU touchdown — hey, I was just engaged a few days earlier — and even after the second BYU touchdown. But on the third BYU touchdown — when BYU takes the lead in the ballgame, and the whole stadium goes crazy — I figure, “Hey, why not?” And so I turn and give Chris a big bear hug, which she enthusiastically returns.

Unbeknownst to me, the network TV camera is at that very moment panning across the screaming BYU fans. It then stops and zooms in on — Chris and me enthusiastically hugging each other. It apparently holds there long enough, and zoomed in enough, so that everyone at BYU who knows me and who is watching the game on TV clearly recognizes (a) that it’s me, (b) that the girl I’m hugging is not my fiancee (or ex-fiancee, but nobody knows that yet, or almost nobody.), and (c) we appear to be enjoying the hugging (which, frankly, we were).

I remain clueless about this televised exposure until I get a call from someone that evening after the game (I honestly don’t remember who), telling me that my ex-fiancee was watching the game with several friends and was, well, we shall say, not amused. My first thought is: “Uh-oh.” (Actually, my first thought may have been a bit more profane than that, though probably not out loud.)

Yep, the next morning, at my BYU ward, before meetings even start, a girl I know comes up to me and says, “Bruce, it’s funny — I was watching the BYU game on TV yesterday, and at one point they zoomed in the crowd, and I saw someone who looked just like you — but the girl he was hugging didn’t look like your fiancee.” I smiled (sort of) and said, “Yes, well, that was me, and no, that wasn’t my fiancee, but we actually broke off our engagement earlier this week.” She said, “Oh!” and smiled at me in a way that clearly said, “You pathetic scum — you broke off your engagement a few days ago and you’re already hugging other girls?” and then walked off.

This scene was repeated quite a few times that day and in the next several days that followed.

The real irony is that I’m pretty sure that Chris and I didn’t go out a second time.

I’m sure there’s some great lesson in here somewhere, but I think it boils down to, if you’re breaking off an engagement, let everyone know and wait for at least a few weeks before going out with anyone else. Not a great life’s lesson, except possibly for me (since I have been engaged roughly five times in my entire life). But there you have it.  ..bruce..