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	<title>Comments on: (Face buried in hands. Again.)</title>
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	<link>http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/07/11/face-buried-in-hands-again/</link>
	<description>Correcting the incorrigible</description>
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		<title>By: bfwebster</title>
		<link>http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/07/11/face-buried-in-hands-again/comment-page-1/#comment-173</link>
		<dc:creator>bfwebster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 14:07:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/?p=159#comment-173</guid>
		<description>From &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&amp;locale=0&amp;sourceId=2d0a0bbce1d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;LDS.org&lt;/a&gt; (click on &#039;Additional information&#039;):

&lt;blockquote&gt;Formal Church discipline begins when a presiding priesthood leader determines that it is necessary to hold a disciplinary council. The purposes of disciplinary councils are to save the souls of transgressors, protect the innocent, and safeguard the purity, integrity, and good name of the Church. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

There are lots of (mostly inactive) LDS Church members who are engaging in conduct that would typically warrant a disciplinary council, but the Church as a rule doesn&#039;t track down and hold councils on such. The news coverage for this particular council and excommunication &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&amp;q=Mormon+excommunicated+calendar&amp;btnG=Search&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;was extensive&lt;/a&gt; and actually brought the individual far more publicity (and, I suspect, sales) than he would have had otherwise. And it was clear from news reports that this was someone who had been inactive for several years and who didn&#039;t seem at all broken up about his excommunication.

In other words, in this case the disciplinary court neither helped the calendar-maker nor did it &quot;protect the good name of the Church&quot;. In my opinion, anyway.  ..bruce..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From <a href="http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=bbd508f54922d010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&#038;locale=0&#038;sourceId=2d0a0bbce1d98010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____" rel="nofollow">LDS.org</a> (click on &#8216;Additional information&#8217;):</p>
<blockquote><p>Formal Church discipline begins when a presiding priesthood leader determines that it is necessary to hold a disciplinary council. The purposes of disciplinary councils are to save the souls of transgressors, protect the innocent, and safeguard the purity, integrity, and good name of the Church. </p></blockquote>
<p>There are lots of (mostly inactive) LDS Church members who are engaging in conduct that would typically warrant a disciplinary council, but the Church as a rule doesn&#8217;t track down and hold councils on such. The news coverage for this particular council and excommunication <a href="http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&#038;q=Mormon+excommunicated+calendar&#038;btnG=Search" rel="nofollow">was extensive</a> and actually brought the individual far more publicity (and, I suspect, sales) than he would have had otherwise. And it was clear from news reports that this was someone who had been inactive for several years and who didn&#8217;t seem at all broken up about his excommunication.</p>
<p>In other words, in this case the disciplinary court neither helped the calendar-maker nor did it &#8220;protect the good name of the Church&#8221;. In my opinion, anyway.  ..bruce..</p>
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		<title>By: ElizRichardson</title>
		<link>http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/07/11/face-buried-in-hands-again/comment-page-1/#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>ElizRichardson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 06 Sep 2008 13:19:42 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I thought Church disciplinary councils were primarily for administering needed discipline to the individual, for his sake so that he could soberly determine whether or not to correct his course.  It&#039;s not an image control thing, where we&#039;re protecting the church from bad press.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I thought Church disciplinary councils were primarily for administering needed discipline to the individual, for his sake so that he could soberly determine whether or not to correct his course.  It&#8217;s not an image control thing, where we&#8217;re protecting the church from bad press.</p>
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		<title>By: bfwebster</title>
		<link>http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/07/11/face-buried-in-hands-again/comment-page-1/#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>bfwebster</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 15:19:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I agree that Hardy makes it clear that he&#039;s disaffected with the Church, and he didn&#039;t seem terribly upset over the excommunication. But if he simply wanted to leave the Church, all he&#039;d have to do is write a letter to his bishop and ask that his name be removed from the records.

In other words, I think he very much welcomed and wanted all the press coverage and publicity. The stake president handed it to him, while making the Church look a bit silly in the process. And, as I&#039;ve noted before, the Church never speaks about what goes on in disciplinary councils, so Hardy is free to spin the excommunication as a heavy-handed move dictated by Church headquarters to suppress his calendars, when it could just as easily have been for unrelated moral issues.

Actually, I think if a fully active bishop released a calendar like that, he&#039;d end up released from his calling very quickly. :-) But I do agree that I doubt he&#039;d be excommunicated. I think.  ..bruce..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that Hardy makes it clear that he&#8217;s disaffected with the Church, and he didn&#8217;t seem terribly upset over the excommunication. But if he simply wanted to leave the Church, all he&#8217;d have to do is write a letter to his bishop and ask that his name be removed from the records.</p>
<p>In other words, I think he very much welcomed and wanted all the press coverage and publicity. The stake president handed it to him, while making the Church look a bit silly in the process. And, as I&#8217;ve noted before, the Church never speaks about what goes on in disciplinary councils, so Hardy is free to spin the excommunication as a heavy-handed move dictated by Church headquarters to suppress his calendars, when it could just as easily have been for unrelated moral issues.</p>
<p>Actually, I think if a fully active bishop released a calendar like that, he&#8217;d end up released from his calling very quickly. <img src='http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  But I do agree that I doubt he&#8217;d be excommunicated. I think.  ..bruce..</p>
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		<title>By: Frecklefoot</title>
		<link>http://adventures-in-mormonism.com/2008/07/11/face-buried-in-hands-again/comment-page-1/#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Frecklefoot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Jul 2008 14:35:57 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>If you read the article, however, it looks like the guy is really disaffected with the Church.  It looks like the calendar brought him to the attention of the Church leaders, but then they discovered he was pretty critical of the Church and was just waiting to get kicked out.  He broke temple covenants and such.  I doubt either one of the events would get him excommunicated by themselves (how many people leave the Church w/o getting officially excommunicated?), but taken together were grounds for expulsion.  From what I read, it sounded like he really wanted to be kicked out.  They just granted his wish.

If a fully active Bishop, for example, released a similar calendar, I doubt he&#039;d get more than a slap on the wrist.  Just a guess, of course.

(Now topless photos of Sister Missionaries would probably be a different issue).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you read the article, however, it looks like the guy is really disaffected with the Church.  It looks like the calendar brought him to the attention of the Church leaders, but then they discovered he was pretty critical of the Church and was just waiting to get kicked out.  He broke temple covenants and such.  I doubt either one of the events would get him excommunicated by themselves (how many people leave the Church w/o getting officially excommunicated?), but taken together were grounds for expulsion.  From what I read, it sounded like he really wanted to be kicked out.  They just granted his wish.</p>
<p>If a fully active Bishop, for example, released a similar calendar, I doubt he&#8217;d get more than a slap on the wrist.  Just a guess, of course.</p>
<p>(Now topless photos of Sister Missionaries would probably be a different issue).</p>
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